Cine21: NewJeans debuted with global attention and their 1st EP 《New Jeans》 was an instant hit. <Ditto> and <OMG> was proof against a sophomore slump and NewJeans drove home an even larger success through taking the top 3 spot on the charts as well as placing within the Billboard Hot100 within 6 months of debut. Looking back from right before <Ditto> was released to now, how does it feel?
MHJ: There’s a lot going through my mind now. I’m not really the type to worry about superstitions. Right now, I’m getting ready for our next album. It’s going to be something completely new so I hope you all are ready. I remember the moments right before releasing <Ditto>. I thought my heart was going to explode. <Ditto> meant a lot to me, even on a personal level.
Cine21: What do you mean?
MHJ: As the title suggests, ‘Ditto’ was meant to build relatability and furthermore has the meaning of making up.
Cine21: You strategized on announcing the pre-release <Ditto> and the single album 《OMG》 pretty closely with the 1st EP 《New Jeans》. One could say it was a pretty similar yet different strategy from releasing 4 songs and MV back to back without any introduction. Why did you decide to release one single at a time when you could have collected more songs for an EP or go straight to a full LP? I’m curious if this was related to the long term success of the first EP.
MHJ: The idea behind this winter's record was pretty genuine. To give back. A response of sorts on the attention and love we received on the first project. So we led with a warm hearted song <Ditto>, opened a holiday pop-up, and decided to continuously donate a part of the record sale profits. We wanted to put together a package that felt like a Christmas gift and thank everyone for the amount of love they gave towards the 1st EP. It was cancelled due to Covid but originally the NewJeans members were planned to visit a children’s hospital on Christmas day as well.
Cine21: Instead of Hybe’s producers, NewJeans music is being made by producers from BANA, a label that was founded by the former SM Ent employee Kim Kihyun. Why did you decide to work with BANA? I want to hear what the process of getting NewJeans’ music ready was like.
MHJ: The premise that I might be expected to work with HYBE producers sounds a bit weird. I think there’s a couple misunderstandings because ADOR started as a label within HYBE. To put it bluntly, ADOR is a company founded to allow Min Heejin do music and business the way she desires to. This also means that the company will be run differently from the pre-existing media industry systems. The mission of a company holds a lot of meaning. If someone asks how I’ve been able to work 20 years in the idol industry even though I originally had no interest in it, you could say that it was the desire to provide an alternate vision and new music that doesn’t exist yet in the mainstream market. This is the reason I said that “[their] concept is their music itself” right before the launch of NewJeans.
I am not a songwriter or a lyricist, just a producer that has nothing to do with copyright. The flip side of this means that I can do my work without being restrained by a song’s composition. This also means that ideally, Ador’s music is borderless and free of constraints. So working with those who understand my music tastes was much more important than creating an organized system. BANA’s Kihyun is an old friend from my SM Ent days. We became friends because we both did not agree with the company’s style and system at the time. I guess we were the troublemakers. And that’s also why we both left to create our own companies. When I launched ADOR under HYBE, I strongly argued for a complete “lack of interference on creativity and our independent operations”. And as such, HYBE has no say or relation to how ADOR operates and runs production. So it feels weird when I sometimes see ADOR’s music style grouped with SM or HYBE.
BANA members and I have known each other for a long time. Kihyun in particular already knew why I was founding ADOR, my long term goals, and my music tastes so it was easy working with him. ADOR’s music does not rely on a single songwriter. As mentioned earlier ADOR was founded to realize my music and vision. So our organization and and the way we work is different from other companies. I collect music and decide [their release]. For instance, NewJeans’ 1st EP was built from a library of demos I’ve been collecting since before NewJeans was even put together. So a lot of the guesses on the songwriter’s intentions are all wrong. I share a lot of opinions with Kihyun in the process of collecting songs, finishing them, and working out their details. And then we work out the details like mixing, mastering, and vocal directing under my direction.
Cine21: The fact that the music that a former creative director and now producer chose and released became one of the most widely successful music of the year means a lot. How do you interpret the music’s success?
MHJ: There are a couple factors that I emphasize, such as melodic progression or vocal style. Personally, I have very much not been a fan of the way K-Pop typically handles melodic progression or vocal styles. The need to include a high pitched part, awkward and sudden rap sections, everyone sounding the same, etc. Of course, I do respect those who enjoy this style. But I do not like these elements and wanted a world in which music without those elements can exist. I started leading overall production in order to be in control of these details.
‘Songwriting’ as a concept is fairly open-ended these days. It’s rare for a beat maker to also take on top lining and most don’t even recognize the concept of a top liner so most people don’t understand the role they play in making music so it’s understandable that most people fail to understand. The importance of a beatmaker versus a topliner varies song to song so I can’t say which is more important. And as such it’s arguable that the role of a director that manages this overall process has grown. All this means that a song isn’t made by one person. If you hear demo samples with different toplines on top of the same beat, I’m sure this will make a lot more sense. The outcome might have been very different if the beatmaker or the melody maker directed the vocals instead of myself. 250, who gained a lot of recognition through working with us, has always been a polished producer and has given music to other idol teams as well. But the output has been very different from ours. It might be obvious but the style of a final product changes depending on the final stakeholder’s decisions. A lot rides on my decisions. So word choice of asking how I “chose” is right yet wrong. I’m someone that wants the change the game. I wanted to break the existing notion on how K-Pop can be successful. I became a producer and a CEO and yet I still desire to work in a creative environment that is free of prejudice. I hope lots of different thoughts appear in this market. This is coming from from a former art director that had no interest in idols. This should be your takeaway.
Typically, when something is successful, people like to look at the result and understand the process by going backwards. But there are serious limitations to this given that there is a finite amount of experiences to analyze and draw conclusions out of. The reality I experienced and have built is often very different from the 3rd person’s presumptive perspectives, because everyone works differently and approaches their lives differently. The title of Art Director, Creative Director, and Producers all meant different things per industry and per person. Never assume things with little basis. Things that feel new do for a reason. Using old conventions to understand newness could already be an outdated practice. One needs to think outside the box to think differently. Easily defining how success is made is not something every record producer is capable of. But if you must know how I think, I could say this. Perhaps it was the harmony of an attractive beat and melody paired with a easy to listen vocal with all the overwhelming aspects removed. There is a reason I wanted to be strong at the basics.
Cine21: Lets talk about the MV story. There has bee a trend of adding lore or an overall narrative but this seems absent in NewJeans. Was this a deliberate move away from the way the K-Pop industry has been obsessed in lore? Or was this to give each album a different concept?
MHJ: To summarize, I’m a person that is against K-Pop’s perspective on lore (laughter). NewJeans is a team that lacks the K-Pop element of lore. But one could argue that our message, which we have been sending pretty consistently, is a narrative of sorts. And if that’s how you understand us, that’s very welcome. I am a curious person by nature and I always look for fun. NewJeans albums will continue to state this similar message over different formats.
I’ve read someone argue that they enjoy NewJeans for their lack of being complicated by lore building that K-Pop has been pushing as of recent. Of course, NewJeans has their own stories and concepts but they seemed to like that NewJeans was not hastily building a narrative, followed by the creator’s attitude of forcing symbolism and for the audience to analyze it. NewJeans seems to be the result of Min Heejin asking questions such as “What is a concept to an idol” or “How do you build a story” and such. How did you reach a conclusion and apply them to your work?
It feels like the community has been rather sensitive on the ideal of a self driven, independent idol. But it’s ironic that they idealize this yet welcome lore that seem to treat them as characters. Aren’t these two opposing concepts? I have not been able to actually measure the effectiveness of what the K-pop community calls ‘lore’ (laughter) so even as someone who has worked in this industry for several years, I question whether we’re just overgeneralizing from the opinions of the select few. Several factors play a role in creating popularity so it’s difficult to measure the actual impact of what we call lore. Because of that, I had no reason the ‘push’ for lore. NewJeans will adapt and provide a topic that is appropriate for each moment in time, as seen in how we released <Ditto> as an answer to the debut album last summer.
Cine21: I heard that ‘deer in a snowfield’ imagery in the <Ditto> MV was directly from you. What was reason? Personally it reminded me of <Stand By Me> and <All That Heaven Allows>.
MHJ: When I first heard the intro to the <Ditto> demo, I was absolutely taken back by the chorus. It was as if it expressed everything I wanted to say. And a picture came into my head. A deer that randomly pops out in a white snow field and the faces of people who meet the unexpected. As if to represent the relationship between consumers and NewJeans who debuted out of nowhere. I was thinking of those who witnessed the beauty of freedom in an open, empty environment and their desire to own it. The desire to chase after something beautiful, while unintentional, puts constraints on the subject and ironically reduces their charm. I thought of this bizarre relationship and thought it’s similar to our reality. I understand people may not trust and question something they have yet to experience but I wanted to state that we will shine more brightly when we are left free. I even thought that that might be something that everyone actually wants. I collected <Attention> <Hype boy> <Hurt> <OMG> in 2019 but <Ditto> in particular was produced [from my ask] for the winter of 2022. Ironically, The misunderstandings from the 1st EP was what made <Ditto> happen. I wanted to wrap up the misunderstanding by reconciling [TL note: she’s being very deliberate w her word choice. She’s not calling it a fight, she’s not saying she’s apologizing. She wants to make up for what’s happened and what’s happened is a misunderstanding]. As if we could transfer the heat of the summer to the warmth of the winter. So I was even more sure that I wanted to build an album that felt like a gift.
Cine21: I heard that you gave director Shin Wooseok complete creative control. Is this how you approach all your work? If there are parts that you are more involved in versus not, I’m curious how you decide which is which.
MHJ: The way I work is always different for each project. When I was on <You Quiz on the Block> two years ago, I saw the episode with Dolphiner Films Director Shin Wooseok. I felt like the way he approaches work and sees the market is similar to me. As in, he was not fantasizing about the media industry, he had strong beliefs, he worked without borders, etc. Of course, I wasn’t planning on working with him back then. While working on 《OMG》, I wanted to give a completely different impression than that of the 1st EP. In order to do that, I needed a completely different direction in the MV as well. And Director Shin came into my head. I wanted someone who had never filmed any K-Pop MVs and I needed a creative mindset that thinks without borders. After meeting with him, I was excited about his lack of interest in the K-Pop community and his unique work ethic. I still remember his first question when we held our first meeting after we decided to start working. He wanted to know the long term plan and the future direction of NewJeans. He said he needed to know the overall direction in order to figure out what story to tell. And I was so relieved. I can’t not be excited when I thinks something is important and someone asks that very thing. His work style and his thought process was very similar to mine as well. He’s someone that can do the A to Z by himself. And I know, better than anyone, that they do not need anyone else to interfere with their work. Most importantly, I wanted to something that I couldn’t imagine so I wanted to stay out of it. So I volunteered as assistant. I asked him to do everything he needs to and that I will support from every direction, whether it be costuming or other filming needs. I then briefed him on our mission, the context of this industry, the future direction of NewJeans, and the role of this particular album. And we discussed all of these for a while. We weren’t neccessarily just discussing the concept or the narrative. And this goes for the deer as well. I let him know that “All I wanted was for him to understand the ‘why’ behind the impression I got. No need to be boggled down in the look and feel of it. I don’t want to buldoze over your thought process.” It’s not a specific order, but rather a producer’s “why” could be a part of the concept or the inspiration. I think Director Shin did a great job with both <Ditto> and <OMG>. I wanted <OMG> to be considerably unique since <Ditto> is something that everyone would enjoy. And he delivered. I recall being surpirsed after reading the first scenario of <OMG>. The paradox of the K-Pop industry, the direction of NewJeans, both were well implemented.
The dance MV have a strong appeal of their own. I know that there is value to visual side of it so we made several dance MVs. The actual MV needs to hold a larger message and deliver something more. I wanted to say that there things that are more important than the view counts. I work with young children so this is something I honestly needed to do.
Cine21: I’m curious about the leadership of Minheejin, as someone who decides on a direction, listens to her coworkers and draws a larger picture.
MHJ: I talk with everyone involved about the ultimate end goal. I get rather specific about the plan and how we get there. Because I have a very clear plan on how I want to do my work. Same goes for the NewJeans members. I take a lot of effort in explaining what I want to do, what I want to say, and why this is important to us. In a way, this is more important than explaining a concept or a storyline. It’s building the right foundations. One of the essential roles I play is driving this directive such that those intentions show themselves as needed.
For instance, I argued for a specific style of choreo, an unconventional and freestyle style that’s different from the common idol knife choreography, way before NewJeans came together. ADOR’s performance director Kim Jooeun agreed with and understand my intentions well, and it’s all in the result. <Hype Boy> was an example where we received an initial draft and did a complete refresh. I re-explained the style we need and asked her to redo the choreo. I’m not a choreopgraher so I can’t ask for a specific move or detailed movements. I just do what I can to explain the mood and direction I’m looking for. And the result was great. It was a viral hit as a challenge, and we continued to collaborate. We went with the original draft for <Cookie> and <OMG> without editing them. Talented people just need a solid direction and support. Same goes for ADOR’s stylist Choi Yoomi. It’s easy working with her since we share similar perspectives. Maybe it’s because I built this label to work a little more comfortably. I work well when my mind is at peace. And that happens when I work with those that share similar values. Only then can I lead and tell them to follow me. Micromanagement has it’s time and place. It’s not an always or a never. Micromangement is often seen in choreography since many people are working together closely. To draw the best result, small details need to be explained and directions need to set. This isn’t easy since the other person has feelings. Everyone is different and best I can do is adapt to each situation and subject. Good results aren’t easy. Director Shin Donggul, who directed <Hype Boy> and <Cookie> used the expression “mothership”. It sounded like consolation.
Cine21: From SM Ent’s Visual and Art Director to Creative Director, to HYBE’s CBO, and now to ADOR’s leader. I imaging there was a process in learning how these roles differ. I wonder why you decided to become a leader and a executive producer after coming to ADOR. Business and production could’ve been separately managed and yet you chose to do both; why?
MHJ: I founded a label to be an executive producer and took the role of a CEO to be fully independent as an executive producer. Creativity is a field that requires close communication with business management. This doesn’t imply reckless spending behavior. Success in creativity within pop culture is measured by the numbers. This isn’t pure art. So to me, creativity and business have been on the same line of importance. It’s been 20 years since I’ve been a part of this industry. I’ve witnessed a lot of mistakes and mishap over those 20 years. If someone asks what I’ve learned over these 20 years, it’s, “Ah, that’s what I should avoid.” and “I should avoid that.” I’ve witnessed plenty of conflict that arose from misunderstanding between creativity and business. Simply spending a lot of money without proper planning does not lead to good creative output nor business output. Many people use the phrase “HYBE funds” to explain everything, but it’s not an expression I agree with. Invested funds and actual label management strategy that utilize them is separate from HYBE and is fully under the label’s control, and furthermore I’ve received a couple other investment opportunities of simiar value at the time from companies other than HYBE. I had several options at the time and regardless of the investor, my number 1 request was always ‘creative independence’ and ‘nonintervention’, so it didn’t have to be HYBE. Then this leads to ‘why I had to choose HYBE,’ but I will stop here since that will lead to a completely different topic than this interview.
The 1st EP budget was not hastily planned at all. Lots of folks mentioned HYBE’s capital regarding the 4 MVs and their production budget. HYBE has no say over ADOR’s production plan or how the funds are spent, because we were promised autonomy in business management. Our budget is not too different from other companies or labels, because the production budget was planned from my experience with budgeting and market research. If anything, we were much more efficient given the amount produced. And sure, budget helps, but a lot of it doesn’t always lead to good results. I try my best to balance spending and creativity based on my experience in the field. And that’s one of the factors that allowed for a NewJeans to be paid so quickly. Account balancing is different for each company and is a top secret so not a lot of people actually know how they work. Maybe it’s because of this lack of understanding, but I saw a lot of people talk about how NewJeans were paid 2 months into debut. Some were confused between creative neighboring rights [TL:no idea what this is] and account balancing. Some were arguing that it was possible because we’re a part of a large company.
Given how rare this is in the industry, I don’t not understand. At least based on what I’ve seen, nobody has been paid this quickly. But nobody has 3 debut title tracks. And nobody had all three enter the charts so quickly and stay on top for the long run. The market is changing so obviously there aren’t examples to compare us to and so I understand people are guessing. We didn’t pay NewJeans because we were nice, and it wasn’t because HYBE is big. It happened because the necessary conditions were met. To summarize, it happened due to a balanced budget plan, a triple title strategy, and the outcome of being successful pretty quickly. When I first decided on three title tracks, lots of people were surprised and said a lot of things, but I was able to make the decision because I was a producer and yet a CEO. Filming several MVs was also possible because I was a producer and a CEO. If you’re a producer, you need to understand that pop culture is not free from the numbers. I able to think about how to create those numbers and alternate solutions preceisely because I’m a creative and an administrator, not an administrator that has nothing to do with the creative side.
Cine21: I heard that you had no interest in K-Pop or the idol industry when you were in school. What did you have trouble accepting while working within the K-pop industry? What were some industry wide practices that you wanted to ignore?
MHJ: When I was in school, I had no interest in idol culture. If anything, I was a bit more on the critical side. I think that’s what allowed me to join this industry. To be honest I constantly ran into situations that were hard to accept while working. I don’t think it was just being angry, but more that it logically didn’t make sense. I can’t pick just one or two things. Perhaps I built this label to prove that those outdated practices or prejudices can be broken.
Because we’re talking about ‘something that I couldn’t understand about this industry’, something recent comes to mind, even though it’s a bit off topic. People who talk about me as a successful fan or the theory that I am projecting my own past into the MV. Taking imaginative guess that’s far from the truth and assuming that they’re correct is already dangerous in itself. I felt pity when I saw people attacking based on those assumptions and couldn’t begin to understand where it started go wrong. Isn’t attacking somebody based on unconfirmed guesses actually just making up whatever reason to hate? It felt like I was witnessing this persistent dark side of the industry. It’s not limited to this recent incident, but it’s always a bit scary when I realize some people are too deep in idol culture beyond understanding.
Cine21: Maybe it’s because you’re a producer that’s been getting a lot of attention, but you’ve been receiving off criticisms from people who don’t understand the industry, and from a third person perspective, it feels like I saw you being over criticized pretty often. How do you feel about this. How are you managing all this on a personal level and as a CEO.
MHJ: The idol industry as I understand is full of various contradictions and unique characteristics. It’s a complicated topic, but the idol industry is typically composed of trainees in their teens that peak in their early 20s. The industry is characterized by companies that find these underage trainees and train them. Because of this, prospective idols look for stability in management and fandoms desire that the most for the person they support. But it’s also true that due to this, fandoms maintain a hostile attitude towards these companies by default. Of course, there’s been many incidents and unsolved issues so I understand that there are criticisms. I imagine over criticizing and being excessively absorbed in the culture is the result of these unsolved issues that have just become characteristics.
My relationship with NewJeans, at the very least, is different from the stereotypical entertainment label to artist relationship. A new kind of relationship within the media industry. And I didn’t pop out of nowhere, I’ve been in this K-Pop industry the last twenty years as content producer. I realize, however, that I can’t change everything overnight. It’s up to me to prove through my attitude and outcomes. It’s been 6 months since I launched NewJeans. My name’s on everything we do so I couldn’t slack off in any aspect. Content, TV appearances, ads, and marketing: I am consistently trying to do what I can do provide new direction and fix some of their respective issues. It’s a small thing, but NewJeans albums did not contain random assortments of photocards that are quite popular among idol fans. This is because I wanted people to buy our products for what they are, not because of marketing gimmicks. I was glad to see the excited response but I was also curious. One of the experiments I wanted to do while launching ADOR and NewJeans is how far I can get with just the basics. This is why we didn’t do a YouTube promo campaign. I wanted to compete with the foundations; music, choreo, and content. It’s easier to evaluate reality the cleaner your data is. And once you set that as your basis, it’s easier to decide where to go next.
If anything, they’re sweet consumers that are excited by photo cards. They move me. If this their attitude now, I’m wondering how excited they can be once I’m going all in. Just a random thought but I’m suddenly just very thankful. It’s fun creating content by bouncing back and forth between the fans. If you look at just my title, you could ask why a CEO is knee deep in all this work but my title doesn’t change what I do. If I need it, I make it and new things that are perhaps hard to explain. I wanted to create a new kind of relationship with our consumers. The reason I founded ADOR was to do something I enjoy. ‘Fun’ influences a lot. ‘Fun’ is the foundation of the ‘entertainment’ industry. And that’s what I’m focusing on. And because we’re in our early days, I am indeed involved in leading a lot. But good results will serve a good reference point for people at ADOR.
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